Episode 9: Should women lead in the Church? (Part 1)
EPISODE SUMMARY
Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Kara-Kae and Elizabeth kicked off their discussion by talking about holiday decoration traditions.
Then they kicked off their three-part discussion on women in the Church by asking the question, “Should women lead in the Church?” Today they laid the groundwork by discussing some foundational issues around comlementarianism and egalitarianism. They discussed various roles women play in the Church, and even offered their own viewpoints on the topic. As always, they provided lots of Scripture and resources to back up their discussion. We hope you’ll join us today and for the following weeks as we discuss women in the Church.
THE LITTLE THINGS
We like to start each episode by talking about “the little things” in life, and this week we discussed the little things that we are grateful for .
Kara-Kae is thankful for the chance to take a break this week and the chance to travel and spend time with family.
Elizabeth talked about how grateful she is for her husband. On the heels of a minor surgery this week, her husband has done a great job taking care of her and the kids.
THE CONVERSATION
Today we are kicking off a 3-part series and answering the question, “Should women lead in the church?” Our goal here is not to convince you of one viewpoint or another, but to point you to Scripture and have you decide where you land on the issue.
Kara-Kae and Elizabeth define two terms:
Complementarianism - the belief that men and women are equal in personhood, but they are created for different roles in society, families, careers, and the Church; these roles complement each other.
Egalitarianism - the belief that men and women are equal in personhood and there are no limitations on what roles each gender plays.
Kara-Kae went on to describe different roles in the Church, and how women fit into these roles.
Deacon - servant; some churches allow women to serve as deacons because it’s not a “leadership” role; it’s more of a service role
Phoebe - Romans 16 - Greek word for “deacon” = diakonin . . . same word that is used in 1 Tim 3:8, 10-13 and Php 1:1.
So, the question remains: was Phoebe’s role as a deacon in the church the same role as a deacon in today’s church?
Some people say YES because:
the same word used for deacon throughout Scripture is used to describe Phoebe.
there is no evidence that her role is different than what we think of as a deacon in our church’s today
She was not in leadership over men
1 Tim 3:11 - the word “women” used here = women deacons or wives of deacons
1 Tim 3:8 - mentions “husbands of one wife” . . . the writer was talking about the issue of polygamy (husbands were only allowed to take one wife, but they were violating this law); the writer is not talking about the issue of gender roles pertaining to being a deacon. Women were not allowed to take more than one husband, so there was no need to address women here.
Some people say NO because:
It wasn’t a leadership position; it was a role of service
1 Tim 3:8 - mentions “husbands of one wife” and since Phoebe wasn’t a husband, she couldn’t have one wife.
Elder - Overseers; steer the spiritual direction of the church
Pastor/Teacher
the word “pastor” is only used once in Scripture (Eph 4:11); this is why the words “pastor” and “elders” are used interchangeably
“Pastor” and “elder” are used in place of “shepherd” (Acts 20:28); Bible doesn’t give much description about what a pastor does or should do.
1 Cor 11:3-5 - Paul addresses the issue of head coverings when praying and prophesying . . . Paul is addressing men AND women who were preaching and prophesying. Prophets were people talking about the culture and what would happen to the people if they continued on their current path.
OT prophetesses: Miram, Deborah, Huldah
NT Prophetesses: Anna and Philips four daughters
People who support women pastors say the women in the Bible were called “prophets” but were still publicly preaching
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Kara-Kae and Elizabeth also looked at two main Scriptures that people turn to when deciding what a woman’s role should be in the Church:
People who believe women SHOULD have leadership roles in the Church:
When Paul addresses “modest dress”, he does so because there was a Temple of Diana in Ephesus that was filled with temple prostitutes. The men were going to the Temple to worship and were also engaging with prostitutes. Paul is telling the Ephesian women to dress modestly so they wouldn’t be mistaken for a temple prostitute. Paul never again talks about a woman’s style of dress; he is speaking to this specific situation.
When he says, “be quiet,” he is using the Greek word for “settle down” or “be still.” He was not saying be silent, he was just saying, “simmer down.” Some believe he was addressing women in the church who were being disruptive and telling them to be receptive to their church leaders and what they were being taught.
“A woman should not lead a man” . . . some interpret this to mean that a woman should not lead a man into sin. Given what was going on in their culture with the temple prostitutes, this would make sense.
People who believe women SHOULD NOT have leadership roles in the Church:
Some people and churches believe that, according to this verse, women should not be able to teach a class, sing in the choir, serve on a committee, or really do anything else in the church. They should attend church and remain silent, as the Scripture reads. They take this Scripture literally.
People who believe women SHOULD have leadership roles in the Church:
Women in Pauls’ day were not as educated as men, so they did not understand everything being taught in church. Because they did not understand, they were asking questions and being disruptive. Paul is telling them not to disrupt teaching, but instead to save their questions until they got home when they could ask their husbands. Paul wasn’t being derogatory toward women; he was simply addressing the cultural norm that women were uneducated and should rely on their educated husbands to understand Scripture and theology. In today’s context, women are just as educated as men, so we don’t see them being disruptive in the Church.
Kara-Kae gave a great analogy: If you went to an adult class at church and took your 7-year-old daughter with you, she would not understand the theological principles being taught, not because she isn’t smart, but because she doesn’t have the education to prepare her for what is being taught. Instead of interrupting the teacher to ask her questions, it would be better for her to listen quietly and then go home and ask you all her questions.
People who believe women SHOULD NOT have leadership roles in the Church:
Some people and churches take this literally and believe women cannot teach a class, sing in the choir, serve on a committee, or really do anything else in the church.
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How does the issue of women in the church play out in our culture today?
What happens when a woman is more qualified for a leadership position than a man, but the man is hired simply because of his gender?
Kara-Kae shared her experience of working at a church and being replaced by a man who was given a higher salary and a more recognized title, even though she had been in ministry longer and he had never worked in ministry.
Elizabeth mentioned that churches often have a Worship Pastor, a College Pastor, a Lead Pastor, etc., but the woman in children’s ministry is called “Director of Children’s Ministry” instead of “Children’s Pastor.”
Kara-Kae and Elizabeth encourage listeners to ask themselves, “Is my church operating according to Scripture or are they relying on tradition?”
What are some beneficial reasons to place women in leadership?
It helps churches have a wider reach because women feel represented.
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Kara-Kae explains that she falls more on the side of egalitarianism side of the issue. She believes a person’s gifts, passion, and calling—not gender—play into their role in the church.
Elizabeth admits that in the past she fell on the conservative complementarian side of the discussion, but that viewpoint was based mainly on tradition and fear (fear violating Scripture and dishonoring leaders in the church). As she has grown in her faith, done more research, and been given opportunities to serve and lead in the church, she has shifted away from a more conservative view on gender roles in the church. She can’t call herself an egalitarian because she is still not sure where she lands when it comes to women serving as elders or lead pastors, but she is a much more liberal complementarian than she used to be.
They both agree that we all are a work in progress when it comes to our theology. We all need to continue researching, praying, and have conversations with others.
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Listener comments:
“Women seem to compete. Men just encourage . . . in the online world, not all women encourage . . .” Kara-Kae and Elizabeth agree that women do compete in ministry and online, but they think this is because women are operating out of a scarcity mentality. They haven’t been given a chance to use their gifts, so they feel threatened by others who are using the same gifts. Also, men don’t struggle with not being heard in the church, so they don’t need to compete.
“In the past, a pastor informed me that I cannot even lead a Bible study because I may not understand what I am teaching.” Kara-Kae and Elizabeth have both had similar experiences in churches.
“I am a part time pastor at a church. I used to feel held back, but after attending this current church, I feel called out to use my gifts . . .”
RESOURCES TO REFRAME OUR THINKING
Kara-Kae watched some videos on YouTube that helped her with this issue . . . Jen Wilkin and Jackie Hill Perry.
Elizabeth just finished an audiobook called Grace by Natashia Deón.