Episode 10: Should women lead in the Church? (Part 2)
EPISODE SUMMARY
Kara-Kae and Elizabeth continue their discussion on women in the Church by asking the question, “Should women lead in the Church?” Today they interviewed Pastor John Durham from Highland Baptist Church in Waco, Texas. John describes himself as a “kind comlementarian” and leads listeners through what it means to affirm and support women in ministry while still holding to a complementarian view of women in the church.
If you missed Episode 9—the first part of our three-part series—we highly recommend you go back and listen to that episode first, then dive into this episode.
THE LITTLE THINGS
We like to start each episode by talking about “the little things” in life that made a big impact that week.
Kara-Kae shared about the Office Ladies podcast. If you’re a fan of the T.V. show The Office you need to check this out!
Elizabeth said her “little thing” is her husband because he has taken great care of her after her surgery.
THE CONVERSATION
Kara-Kae gave a great recap of Episode 9, so if you haven’t listened yet, go back and listen to that one before jumping into today’s episode.
Elizabeth introduced today’s guest, Pastor John Durham of Highland Baptist Church.
John introduced himself, his family, and his role in the church.
He hit many important points including:
Unity in the Church . . . no matter where we land on this issue, unity among the Church and the body of believers is more important than the issue of complementarianism vs. egalitariansim.
Women in the Church . . . for many people, women leading in the Church is a peripheral issue. It’s an important issue, but not a defining issue.
Polarizing leaders want us to camp out on this issue instead of focusing on what we agree on about the Gospel.
We should give each other grace and room to continue working through this issue, and the right to change our mind at any time.
Kara-Kae asked the question: What would you say to churches who are divided on this issue?
John: We should go back to the core values that we can agree on (prayer, service, the Gospel). Issues such as how we baptize, take communion, and view complementarian vs. egalitarian should not divide us.
Elizabeth asked John to tell our listeners where he lands on where women can serve in the Church?
John says that his church allows, asks, and encourages women to teach in the church (in both all-female and co-ed environments). Neither he nor his church believes spiritual gifts are limited by gender. However, he does not fall on the egalitarian side because women teaching is still under the authority and leadership of men in the church. However, on Sunday morning, preaching from the pulpit is limited to men (this decision was made by the elder board, not out of tradition but out of a response to what Scripture says.
His church also allows women to speak from the stage on Sunday mornings and stand at the altar to pray with church attenders.
He also referred back to two verses Kara-Kae previously mentioned (1 TIm 2:9-15 and 1 Cor 14:33-36) and said that these are 2 out of 100 verses we should look at. John said that many complementarians make a mess out of this issue because these are the only two Scriptures they rely on to support their position.
If you look at Genesis through Jesus and the apostles, we can arrive at a healthier, more balanced place.
He also said mentioned that his church is in the process of asking a local school superintendent (who is female) to come and speak from the pulpit on a Sunday morning. A hard complementarian would have a problem with this, but John and his church feel comfortable with this.
Kara-Kae asked John about his views on women serving in the Church.
He again reiterated that spiritual gifts are not assigned by gender. However, he and Highland Baptist Church believe that the position of elder should be reserved Biblically for men, not out of tradition or patriarchal oppression of women, but because EVERY time elders are mentioned in Scripture, it always refers to a man.
Kara-Kae asked John, What would you say to a woman who has the desire to serve in the leadership capacity outside of teaching?
John said there are opportunities for women to shepherd both men and women through small groups called CG’s (Connection Groups). If a woman told John she felt called to be an elder at Highland, he would affirm and support her calling but encourage her to find a church where women elders are a part of their leadership. If she were to stay at Highland with this calling, she frustrate Highland and Highland would frustrate her. This would not bode well for the spirit of unity between the Church and its body of believers.
Then the discussion turned to women deacons. John says that it usually comes down to the issue Phoebe . . . was she a deacon as an officer or as a servant? He sees both sides of the issue. Personally, John would love to see women deacons at his church, but he is in the minority of his church leadership and he will submit to them. He then outlines the advantages of having women deacons.
Ultimately, John is a gracious complementarian who focuses more on unity than on what he considers peripheral issues, such as women leading in the Church. He also reminds and encourages us to be 100% filled with grace and 100% filled with Truth on this issue.
*** Endnote: We highly recommend this video with Jackie Hill Perry for another perspective on complementariasm.
RESOURCES TO REFRAME OUR THINKING
Kara-Kae recommends the book, I Think Your Wrong but I’m Listening written by the hosts of Pantsuit Politics . . . one despite the fact that one is a democrat and one is a republican, they always have open, honest, grace-filled conversations.
Elizabeth watched the mini-series, When They See Us, the true story about 5 boys falsely accused and convicted of a crime. It is one of the most difficult, yet necessary movies we need to watch. Elizabeth also watched the 2-hour Oprah show where she interviewed the cast of the movie and the men who were known as the “Central Park 5” (now called “The Exonerated 5".”