Episode 11: Should women lead in the Church? (Part 3)
EPISODE SUMMARY
Kara-Kae and Elizabeth continue their three-part discussion on women in the Church by asking the question, “Should women lead in the Church?” Today they interview Mary Alice Birdwhistell, senior pastor at Calvary Baptist Church in Waco, Texas. Mary Alice presents the egalitarian point of view and offers great insight into her own calling as a pastor and advice for other women who feel led to lead in a church.
If you missed Episode 9 (where we introduced the topic of women leading in the Church) and/or Episode 10 (where we interviewed complementarian pastor John Durham), we highly recommend you go back and listen to those episodes, then join us for this episode, Episode 11.
THE LITTLE THINGS
We like to start each episode by talking about “the little things” in life that made a big impact that week.
Kara-Kae bragged about her vacation with her husband. Those of us drowning in holiday parties and Christmas shopping no longer like her. Even so, she is currently frolicking around the Caribbean and reconnecting with her spouse.
Elizabeth talked about putting together Operation Christmas Child boxes with her kids.
THE CONVERSATION
Kara-Kae recapped weeks 1 and 2 before diving into today’s conversation.
Mary Alice Birdwhistell is our guest today and helping us navigate this conversation on women in the Church. She graduated from Truett Seminary at Baylor University, where she discovered her love for teaching and preaching. She was a member at Calvary Baptist Church, then became the Children’s Minister, then the Associate Pastor, and now she serves as the Senior Pastor.
Calvary Baptist Church’s claim to fame is that it was the first Baptist Church in Texas to call a female head pastor back in the 90’s. Calvary fully affirms women in ministry and helped her see her role as a pastor. Today, that role includes preaching, teaching, pastoral care, planning mission trips, working with small groups, teaching Sunday school, and being a part of the everyday life of what God is doing in her church and community.
Elizabeth mentioned that Julie Penington-Russell was the first female pastor at Calvary, and she asked Mary Alice how Julie paved the way for her.
Mary Alice said that Julie was a huge mentor to her. It’s also notable that Julie faced a lot of challenges that Mary Alice has not dealt with (picketers outside the church, naysayers, etc.) Mary Alice is grateful for what Julie has done to pave the way for her and other women in the Church.
So, when Mary Alice was called to lead as Senior Pastor at Calvary, the issue was not about her gender, but her giftings. Not only that, but Calvary helped her see her call before she saw it and accepted it for herself.
Mary Alice points out that it’s difficult for girls to believe in their abilities and calling when they’ve never seen a woman do what they are called to do. This applies to ministry and other areas of life. Mary Alice said that she did not see herself as a pastor because, aside from Julie, she had not seen that before.
This is a point Kara-Kae and Elizabeth have mentioned previously: representation matters for women in the church.
Mary Alice believes there are not categories that God puts men and women in when it comes to gifts, service, and leadership.
She gave us an account of growing up in the church, and although she now differs from them theologically, she is grateful for their influence on her life and faith.
She remembers wrestling through verses such as 1 Tim 2:9-15, and she sought guidance and wisdom from other leaders when landing on her viewpoint.
Kara-Kae mentioned that women are serving and leading without titles and official roles in the Church. She then asked Mary Alice what the advantage was to giving women these titles?
Mary Alice said it lets them know they are valued and seen and goes back to the issue of representation. When church leadership is comprised of white, 55+-year-old men, what does that say to young women and children? What plan does God have for their lives?
Elizabeth asked Mary Alice to give some advice to the woman who feels called to lead in a church, but belongs to a more complementarian church.
Mary Alice said:
Is there room for you to lead in your church in some way? You might be the example to others of women leading in your church
For some women, this issue is a deal-breaker.
Sometimes we are called to stay and work through the issue and sometimes we are called to leave and find a new church. This requires discernment for each person.
Kara-Kae asked MA what she would say to the woman who feels pushback from their church leadership or held back in some way, but she doesn’t have the option to find another church?
Mary Alice would tell that woman to find a place that is affirming (ministry, organization, etc.) We don’t have to lead ONLY in a church.
Then Mary Alice gave us our favorite quote of the entire series. She said that a fellow (male) pastor told her, “I affirm women in ministry because I baptist little girls.” She continued, “We can’t baptize these believers and say, "‘Go and do what God has called you to do,’ and then put a caveat on that and say, ‘Except if you’re a woman.’”
Mary Alice shared some Scripture that has helped her arrive at her viewpoint:
The Bible is filled with women leading in the early Church (Anna, circle of unnamed women serving alongside Jesus and the disciple, Mary and Martha, the women who were the first to preach the resurrection of Jesus, Lydia, Priscilla, Phoebe, Eoudia, and Chloe to name a few).
1 Tim 2 . . . Mary Alice has wrestled with this text, but she considers it alongside all the other texts. Paul is writing a letter to Timothy about a specific problem and he’s offering a specific solution.
1 Cor 11 - In one place Paul says women should be silent, but here he says that when they speak in church, they should cover their heads. So he contradicts himself, just as their contradictions throughout the Bible. We need to use context to discern what is going on.
Gal 3:26-28 - Affirms male and female equality
She did not read one book or one text, it’s been years of wrestling, praying, studying, and listening to God on this issue.
*** Endnote: If you want more information on egalitarianism, check out the following resources:
Thank you for joining us in this three-part series. Our heart behind this entire series is for women to search out Scripture for themselves and decide what God has for them.
RESOURCES TO REFRAME OUR THINKING
Kara-Kae recommends the movie, American Son on Netflix. It’s about racism, interracial relationships, family dysfunction, and police brutality.
Elizabeth just finished listening to audiobook called, They Cage the Animals at Night by Jennings Michael Burch. It’s a memoir about foster care and orphans in the 1950’s.